Clare Josa
Recognizing Imposter Syndrome with Clare Josa
Clare Josa is considered a global authority on Imposter Syndrome, the author of eight books, and an expert in the neuroscience and psychology of performance. Her original training as an engineer, specializing in Six Sigma and Lean Manufacturing, means her inspirational approach is grounded in practical common sense, creating breakthroughs not burnout. Take her Imposter Syndrome Quiz.
If you think imposter syndrome is only relevant to a very small part of the population, think again.
In our conversation, Clare Josa shares the difference between the very natural self doubt that we feel when we step out of our comfort zone and the debilitating joyless imposter syndrome. She shows us how to recognize it in ourselves and our colleagues and offers us a tiny practical first step on the journey towards feeling good enough at our core.
[00:00] Introduction to Imposter Syndrome
[00:07] Meet Clare Josa: Expert on Imposter Syndrome
[01:05] Understanding Self-Doubt vs. Imposter Syndrome
[02:05] The Impact of Imposter Syndrome in the Workplace
[04:15] Recognizing Imposter Syndrome in Yourself and Others
[06:22] The Link Between Imposter Syndrome and Burnout
[08:17] Steps to Overcome Imposter Syndrome
If you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy my Life Satisfaction Assessment. It's a 30-minute program where I guide you through a deep dive into 10 areas of your life to assess what's bringing you joy and what's bringing you down. I call it Derailed and it's a fabulous place to begin a joy-at-work redesign.
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Clare Jose: Imposter Syndrome
Introduction to Imposter Syndrome
Lucia Knight: If you think imposter syndrome is only relevant to a very small part of the population, think again.
Meet Clare Josa: Expert on Imposter Syndrome
Lucia Knight: My guest today is Clare Josa. Author, researcher, speaker, trainer on overcoming imposter syndrome. Her new research discovered that 31 percent of employees in the UK are at high risk of burnout, 1 in 10 consider quitting their job every day, and 22 percent of women have turned down a promotion this year because of imposter syndrome.
In our conversation, Clare shares the difference between the very natural self doubt that we feel when we step out of our comfort zone and the debilitating joyless imposter syndrome. She shows us how to recognize it in ourselves and our colleagues and offers us a tiny practical first step on the journey towards feeling good enough at our core.
Let's Dive in.
Clare!
Understanding Self-Doubt vs. Imposter Syndrome
Lucia Knight: What is the difference between natural human self doubt when we're doing something new or big or running through change and imposter syndrome at work?
Clare Josa: So, Lucia, that is such a great question. Self doubt, that is about what we can and can't do. And that comes in when we're stretching a comfort zone, we're learning new skills, maybe we've moved into a new role and we don't yet have the experience or the network to be able to fulfill our potential in it.
Imposter syndrome, though, has a secret sauce. It's actually about who we think we are rather than what we can and can't do. And that secret sauce is about the fear of being found out is not good enough or somehow a fraud. So the reason that's so important is self doubt is natural and healthy. You go on some skills based training, get some mentoring, some standard coaching that will improve.
Your confidence will grow. But if imposter syndrome is running underneath that 3am worry that today's the day your luck will run out, will still persist.
Lucia Knight: And, oh, I absolutely get that difference.
The Impact of Imposter Syndrome in the Workplace
Lucia Knight: So tell me what are some of the major issues that you have seen in your work with experienced professionals when they suffer from imposter syndrome for a long time?
Clare Josa: So one of the biggest challenges is hoping it will go away. Yeah, it's hoping we can just push on through and that by just taking that deep breath pulling our socks up Pushing on through that fear that it will somehow disappear. But the problem is imposter syndrome is actually governed by the primal part of the brain that has already seen the potential risk or threat And decided to self sabotage before the thinking part of the brain is even processing information.
So we're constantly playing catch up, trying not to self sabotage. What happens with imposter syndrome is we will play small. We will tone down our ideas. We will not speak up. So we found in our latest research study, only 11 percent of people feel fully confident speaking up with their ideas at work.
The other, I know the other 80% The other 89, it depends how high risk the idea is, but they're toning them down. They're keeping quiet. They're going what I call beige instead of Marmite. Because they are absolutely scared at a, an identity level of being found out as not good enough. We found that 22 percent of women have turned down offers of promotions.
They know that they could achieve in the last year due to imposter syndrome. So they've actually been offered the job and they've turned it down. We've got one in 10 people is thinking of quitting their job every single day. Due to imposter syndrome, and it's one in four this week in the UK. You see people not speaking up with their opinions, so you end up with groupthink, miscreativity.
But the problem with the pushing on through is it means we're stuck in chronic stress. We're constantly in that fight flight freeze mode. And that is why imposter syndrome is one of the biggest predictors of burnout. And we've just found in the research study, 31 percent of people are at high risk of burning out very soon in the UK.
Lucia Knight: I can almost smell it. Everyone I'm speaking to it feels like they're getting closer and closer to the edge. So that's super interesting research. Okay.
Recognizing Imposter Syndrome in Yourself and Others
Lucia Knight: So, If I am a listener, what are some of the signs that will indicate that either I am experiencing and suffering from imposter syndrome or my colleagues are?
Clare Josa: So there are two ways to look at this. One of them is you can look at the general behaviors. So for example, overthinking and overworking. A two hour report takes two days because you spend so much time overthinking and second guessing how people might receive it.
You might have somebody who really struggles to make decisions. This happens a lot as somebody is getting promoted. They will often lean too heavily on their line manager and the line manager will be wondering, why is this person coming to my office or my team's room 10 times a day? They could make these decisions on their own. So they really struggle with decision paralysis.
And then from the research studies, we've got a model that we call the four P's of imposter syndrome, which are really good behavioral predictors. They are perfectionism, procrastination, project paralysis, and people pleasing. If you've got somebody in your team, you're looking for changes in these. Okay, maybe they've just taken on a stretch objective, a new challenge, something more visible, they've been promoted, or they've just had the tap on the shoulder about would you like to be promoted?
If you suddenly see an increase in that perfectionism, procrastination, project paralysis, and people pleasing, chances are that whatever's just happened has triggered imposter syndrome for them. Not only does that munch enormous amounts of time and energy, the stuff that happens in the brain with blood flow, that means they won't be able to concentrate as well, it affects their performance, they'll be more likely to make mistakes, and they overlap with the fight flight freeze fawn stress response, and if you're really unfortunate and they head intuitively for the fight response, then it can actually turn them into a toxic teammate.
Lucia Knight: Oh my god, you've said so much there. But what I'm feeling in what you've said is that this is energetic work internally, yeah? To do just what is required externally. So, is that where the link is coming towards burnout?
The Link Between Imposter Syndrome and Burnout
Clare Josa: So it's actually coming from that chronic stress response because the biggest issue with imposter syndrome, there are three core drivers amplifiers of it.
There's the external company culture, the working environment and the personal habits. With the personal habits these can be amplified by the culture and the environment and the expectations, how fast you've got to respond to pings, for example, um, how the culture is about if you make a mistake.
What's happening is we're telling ourself what I call mind story drama. We're worrying, what if ing, and catastrophizing. This fires off that chronic stress response, the fight flight freeze response, automatically, without us even realizing. That means the body is constantly flooded with adrenaline and cortisol. The definition of burnout, is the body no longer being able to handle the stress hormones, because we flooded it with them for too long.
This causes insomnia, with women in particular, if you add in things like perimenopause, where we naturally are more sensitive to cortisol. It's one of the reasons why perimenopause is a huge trigger point for imposter syndrome and also hugely talented women leaving the workplace because of it. It's that cortisol and the stress that is driving the self sabotage.
It's that fear of being found out and to truly clear it from an organization, you need to address all three amplifiers, the personal habits, the company culture and the working environment that was fostering this.
Lucia Knight: And that's how people can thrive at work and experience more joy, but it can't be done alone and exclusively.
Exactly. We will have people who are listening who are either recognizing this at home, in their own work life, or in their colleagues. And you've written a book to show professionals how to ditch imposter syndrome and to finally feel good enough. Great title, by the way.
What steps can someone listening today take, next week, to begin this journey towards ditching imposter syndrome.
Steps to Overcome Imposter Syndrome
Clare Josa: One of the first things I would encourage someone to start doing right away today is to become more aware of the stories that you're telling yourself. So if you find yourself in that catastrophizing, you can simply take a deep breath in through the nose, breathe out through the mouth with a sigh, ideally not on a team's call.
Yeah. Just to bring that stress response down and look at those thoughts as though you were observing them. And ask yourself, is that really true? Or is that just imposter syndrome speaking? Just is doing a lot of heavy lifting there because it feels very real when it's happening in our heads. If it's imposter syndrome speaking, great.
What do I want instead? And start focusing on the first step you can take towards the what you want instead. All of the work I teach on this whether it's in the books or in the imposter syndrome hacks app works at two levels both in the moment where you need that press pause and also longer term to prevent imposter syndrome by clearing out those root cause drivers.
It's my engineering background. I'm obsessed with root causes. Clear it out at the root. You don't need the surface level coping strategies, but that is something that people could start doing today. Is this really true? Is it just imposter syndrome speaking? What do I want instead and start gently allowing your nervous system to focus on making that feel safe and exciting instead.
If you enjoyed this, you might also enjoy my Life Satisfaction Assessment. It's a 30 minute program where I guide you through a deep dive into 10 areas of your life to assess what's bringing you joy and what's bringing you down. I call it D Railed. It's a fabulous place to begin a joy at work redesign.
